New Canon HDSLR? My 2-Cents… (updated)
This post was updated on Feb 18 and on Feb 20 after Zeiss announced that Compact Primes will be available in EOS mount.
There have been a couple of posts this morning about rumors about a new Canon HDLSR that someone may or may not have seen in Europe [here on Planet5D and here on Canon Rumors.] The buzz about the buzz about the rumor about the camera that may or may not exist is that it will shoot VIDEO RAW (my term). I’m no expert, of course. Here are my thoughts and hopes anyway.
1. VIDEO RAW won’t fit on a CF Card. The 5DM2 in H.264 cranks out 350mb a minute. I’m happy to shoot 5DM2 video on 8gb and 16gb CF cards. Uncompressed, 10-bit 1080P at 30 FPS [VIDEO RAW] would be over 13gb a minute!* At 23.98 FPS it would be 10gb.* (You can do your own calculations here on the Video Footage Calculator on Digital Rebellion.) So, I’m thinking that VIDEO RAW and a CF-based capture system are not a good fit. (*Click here for more insights on VIDEO RAW data rates and the viability of CF in the comments.)
2. VIDEO RAW is already a standard workflow for some. The reason to shoot VIDEO RAW is the same as shooting PHOTO RAW — you want to maximize your options in post. The RED platform has been embraced by TV, Hollywood and commercials for this reason. ARRI, another industry-standard, also produces the equivalent of 35mm digital cameras with their own version of RAW for moviemaking. VIDEO RAW won’t be for everyone. If fact, it won’t be for many. But for those who need/want this level of control in post, the Canon platform will likely be more affordable than the Red, Arri and other solutions currently on the market.
Feb 18 update: Thanks to my bud Zeke Kamm at NicePhotoMag.com, I just learned that Zeiss will intro their Compact Primes with EOS mounts in April. Read about it on PhotoCineNews and AbleCine. That’s a Zeiss Compact Prime in the intro photo above. Lucky guess on my part! To borrow a phrase from Shane Hurlbut, these lenses will be a “game changer” for the utility of the HDSLR as a high-grade commercial platform.
Feb 20 update: Vincent Laforet has posted a detailed article on the new Zeiss lenses here. Consider it a must read.
3. VIDEO RAW does not make sense might fit on an HDLSR platform. Written prior to the Zeiss announcement> Beyond the issues of data capture, VIDEO RAW does not make sense on an HDLSR because of the mirror. Producers and directors who want the benefits of VIDEO RAW will likely want the benefits of shooting true cine lenses. They need the precision of a T-stop over an F-stop. They will want the ability to pull focus with exact precision. Canon L-glass is great for stills, but considered beginner’s glass for big ticket movies and commercials. (Read Shane Hurlbut’s great article on cine lenses here.) Now, the challenge with mounting an industry-standard PL-mount cine lens onto an HDSLR is that the rear objective is in the swing path of the mirror. There is literally no place for a flapping mirror behind a pro-grade cine lens.
My hopes about a new Canon digital cine platform
- A modular box to which I can bolt the accessories I need for a particular shoot: data recorder, sound gear, external monitors, electronic viewfinder, etc.
- A field-changeable lens mount so that I can use either EOS or PL lenses. I want the option to have a direct lens attachment for either mount – without having to buy two cameras or use an adapter (like this one). I want to be able to change it in the field with a hex-wrench. Good news: the new Zeiss compact primes will do this. Details by Laforet here.
- Time code, zebra and all the other video standard-issue features.
- A price-point that I can afford.
If you’re wondering if what I really want is for Canon to beat Red’s Scarlet to market, the answer is absolutely YES.
A Panavision Primo bolted onto a Canon 5DM2. From: Shane Hurlbut's blog. Click the photo to read his post.
Canon, get rid of aliasing & rolling shutter and give us a HDMI out – No CF Card needed for that workflow.
Nice Article.
One thing to note, RAW is very different kettle of fish from 10-bit uncompressed. If you look at the relative file sizes for Red RAW, Cineform Raw or any of the other formats, they are much smaller than 10-bit uncompressed. Just like the DNG from a camera is smaller than a similar quality JPEG (the operative word is similar).
To back this up. A lot of Red One owners shoot on CF cards in the size ranges you were talking about, so the Red RAW HAS to be smaller than uncompressed.
Mark - Thanks for pointing this out. As I said, I’m not expert when it comes to digital cinematography. I just revisited the calculator that I linked to in the post, Redcode28 RAW 2K calcs at 420mb / min. The curious thing about that number is that it did not change when I selected different frame rates. That seems counter-intuitive. So, I checked RED’s FAQ. They say here that the Red 8gb CF will hold 4-5 minutes of data. So, I’m thinking that the RED spits out 2gb per min.
Per RED’s FAQ (here), their sensor is APS-C at 24.4mm x 13.7mm. That’s just a bit more than half of the sensor real estate on a 5DM2.
Can I interpolate from these stats that a RED sensor the size of the sensor in the 5DM2 will spit out about 4gb per minute and thereby fill an 8gb CF in 2-2.5 minutes? I don’t know.
“Calling all REDRAW experts.” Feel free to jump in here and set me straight.
Seems to me that while a large CF might be an option, as it in with the Red, I’ll continue to think that an external data recorder will be a must-have for projects of any size. Of course, there’s also the possibility that by the time this phantom camera becomes a market reality that Moore’s Law will have dropped the price of 64gb and 128gb CFs down to the everyday-affordable range.
Syl,
I too did a little investigating last night on this issue.
@Mark has already pointed out the Red writes to CF cards, tho I didn’t find out exactly how much time they get per card. I’ll go with your estimate for now.
Yes the Red sensor is smaller than the 5D2, but I think we’re not worried really about size here… the 5D2 sensor can record a still image up to 5600×3700 (roughly)… and a 1080 HD image is only 1920 x 1080 – so the canon is NOT currently writing out and compressing the entire image size… it is throwing away a bunch of data to get the frame size down to 1080.
According to wikipedia, the red one is writing out “2k” images at the smallest resolution that are: 2K 16:9 (2048×1152) — which is just slightly larger than the HDTV resolution of 1920×1080… so the small resolution on the Red is almost the same as the current 5D2 and it can write TVHD sized video at 12 min / 4gb (aprox).
And the highest resolution on the Red One is 4K 16:9 (4096×2304) – which is still smaller than the full size of the Canon 5D2 – but we all know that the canon isn’t currently writing out video in that size. And Canon is compressing with H.264
So, the question really is how much more data is there in RAW video as compared to H.264 that Canon is currently writing out isn’t it?
Mitch – Thanks for joining in! Good insights.
My 2 Cents on your 2 Cents.
Red Raw does have compression in it. It is my understanding that raw sensor data is made up of visual information and non visual information. It is my opinion that the Red Raw codec is efficient because they dump the non visual sensor information retaining the raw visual info.
This is interesting because Red Raw is 12bit, smaller and has a faster data rate than 10 bit uncompressed files.
Canon can learn from Red. They don’t need raw per say. A slightly compressed codec would suffice for now. This brings me to my next point.
I’m a freelance colorist and there is huge interest in using the 5DmII for commercial work here. I’ve already worked on a number commercial jobs shot on the 5DMII. The only complaint is that the footage is severely compressed (h264). If Canon found a way to reduce the compression this camera would be heavily used for commercial work.
All this is nice, but Canon seems far too focused on making DSLRs do video than giving us better lowlight AF and a more intuitive flash system. Hell, I’d settle for them having a website that was actually designed to help users rather than to get them to go elsewhere for help.
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I’m wondering if the 7d may be better suited to the raw hd because it has twice the processing power of the 5d2. (it has two image processors in it vs. the 5d2’s one…)
Thoughts? Might the 1d mk4 and the 7d (both with I think two image processors right?) more apt to faster video (or larger/raw) than they are right now?
Crazy stuff…
Looks like the size limits of CF cards will soon be gone:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1002/10022203cf5specification.asp
I guess 144 petabytes of storage on one card should cut it.
What a fun series of events…
Zeiss Compact primes available in CF mount
+
CF Card capacity goes from 32gb to “Ludicrous”
+
Photokina coming up
=
1Ds mk IV video mode is gonna be awesome.
I’m so excited I can hardly contain myself. In fact, I can’t: BLahdleQQQLLKGDHL!!!!!
By the way, I tested out the video on all the new compact large sensor cameras at PMA. The short of it all? Puke. Yep. I guess I’ll be holding my EVIL camera money in my pocket a little longer. Canon? Canon?
Right?
–Zeke